[O29] Troops out NOW or "at some unspecified date in the future to be determined according to the whim of Congress"?

Sat Oct 1 18:54:47 PDT 2005

keith:

let me try and be clearer: the september 24th issue of people's weekly world has a centerfold poster which explicitly states troops out now. neither i, nor my party, nor judith leblanc stand against the slogan.

but there is this fact --- and mind you facts are stubborn things! --- that a critical mass of the antiwar movement, let alone the american people as a whole, would probably see no contradiction between set the date and get out of iraq by any means necessary ( yeah, by helicopter and plane and boat, the way they came in). this is what needs to be clarified; this is what's going to have to be discoursed amongst ourselves as we continue to bring people into the streets. and yes, shouting out now and not one more dollar/soldier/etc.----------------- is empowering, sends a message to those who are in our ranks who don't at this time feel they can shout these things. but it's the week after september 24 and we still have very honest  people who are not establishment hacks but who would also feel insulted were we to tell them that they were on the left. people who feel that NOW is somewhat abstract. people for whom one would wonder what NOW would mean were we to get out of iraq and
 afghanistan tomorrow at midnight [ timewise probably the only realistic definition of NOW] and then wake up the next morning with an intervention in iran, venezuela, cuba, korea, ad nauseum---------------- complete with ever new levels of bullshit we'd have to cut through in order to build a movement. with what new levels of political acumen and sophistication will the left as--- we now know it --- emerge in order to engage ever widening circles of people?

i guess that the key thing for me is how does the left and " progressives" get better at talking WITH  folks outside of our ranks. and not only in the antiwar movement, but in the much broader movement for peace and justice. that broader movement where antiwar meets up with everything else that we stand for up to and including consigning capitalism/imperialism to the dustheaps of history. a revolutionary project that demands of all of us that we get really creative, really good at talking WITH folks, not AT folks. 

in struggle,

gary hicks

Keith Rosenthal <keithmr81 at yahoo.com> wrote:
gary,
   it seems that you are saying that you don't support the antiwar movement taking up the demand, "troops out now!" (see below).  i think this is a mistake.
   first of all, poll after poll conducted by the US occupation forces in Iraq, show that a majority of Iraqis want the US to leave NOW.  this is why so many Iraqis are actually arming themselves to join the resistance to the US military presence in Iraq.
   second, "practically speaking," expecting Congress, if left to their own devices, to set a date for withdrawal at some point in the future is not going to happen.  The Republicans sure won't do this, and the leaders of the Democratic Party (Kerry, Dean, both Clintons, etc.) have said time and again that they won't "cut and run" from Iraq.  for our movement to demand that these politicians "set a date" for withdrawal would be to sow illusions that the politicians actually are against the war and want to bring the troops home -- they're not; they want to keep troops their indefinitely to protect their geopolitical strategic assets in the region (i.e., oil, military bases, etc.), and to prepare for the possibility of further interventions in the region (Iran, Syria, etc.)
   finally, i don't think raising the demand "Out Now!" will shrink the movement as you argue; in fact, the way I see it, the movement is in the process of growing and blossoming around such figures as Cindy Sheehan and others who call for "Out Now!" or, as she led the crowd in chanting at the demonstration in D.C. last weekend, "Not one more [death or dollar] for this war!"  
   right now, 60% of people are against the war, and a majority of those are for bringing all of the troops home now.  at the moment, while bush continues to slide in the polls, people's distrust for government increases, and more and more people are completely sick of the war in Iraq, the antiwar movement is in a unique position to go on the offensive and be bold in winning even more people to join us in organizing around the demand: "Out Now!"  
   gary, you may argue that a majority of people in this country do not yet support the position of immediate, absolute withdrawal tomorrow.  well, a majority of people in this country also aren't yet sure if ALL the troops should withdraw or some should stay.  yet, it would be ridiculous for our movement therefore to take up the demand: "withdraw a fraction of the troops at some unspecified date in the future as the members of Congress see fit!" just to mirror the whole of American public opinion on this question.  the role of the antiwar movement is not just to mirror the sentiment of the whole of the American public, but also to attempt to influence it and bring it forward, closer to the goal of actually ending the war.  
   more and more people everyday are beginning to think that the troops should come home now.  these people are veteran protesters, veterans of the US Army, teenagers and retirees, men and women, black and white.  it would be a mistake, just at the moment that more Americans are beginning to join the Iraqi majority in calling for immediate withdrawal, for the antiwar movement to then backtrack on this position.  just when we are beginning to have the potential to bring tens of millions of people nationwide into the streets around the demand: "Out Now," is not the time to backtrack or equivocate.  as Martin Luther King, Jr., once famously put it, "Justice delayed is justice denied."
   during the vietnam antiwar movement, people sometimes asked, "well, how can we just bring the troops home tomorrow?"  people responded by saying, "easy, with helicopters and boats."  we have to send a message to the troops, the Iraqis, and the American politicians that the American antiwar movement will not stand for this war one day longer.  we want to end the killing not even tommorrow, but today!  we want all of the money going to this war to be immediately put towards hurricane relief, jobs, education, healthcare, and social security . . .and we want it to happen today! 

Solidarity,
Keith Rosenthal

gary hicks <gooberthink06 at yahoo.com> wrote:
 judith leblanc's proposal to build a broad movement calling on congress to set a date for removal makes more sense than insisting on NOW, when practically speaking we're not going to get NOW any more than we achieved this during the vietnam debacle. as people who lived during that time might recall, set the date was the demand that guaranteed that we would flank around our movement the broadest possible mass base--------------- and as folks know, there's strength AND pressure in numbers. and numbers are not what you'll get with a political purity based on NOW, any more than was the case during vietnam.

further, the article made no reference to john kerry and 2008. maybe that's what kerry has in mind, but if the troops can be brought home sooner, will anyone object?

finally, it appears that the troops will not be brought home, but rather SENT home by the insurgency, the shiites, and other iraqi forces, like their counterparts in vietnam. and while our job is to hasten the day of departure at our end, it's also important to avoid the chauvinist attitude that says that all depends on us----------------- which is reflected in the purist demand for NOW. 

John Harris <john.r.harris at verizon.net> wrote:
The antiwar movement is indeed at a turning point and now is not the time 
to turn back to a messege reflecting a weaker period in our history. I would 
hope that we maintain a strong focus on the demand: 
Bring the Troops Home Now! 

It seems that Judith Le Blanc's message: "Now is the time to build a massive, 
broad movement calling on Congress to set the date for removal of all U.S. 
troops and bases from Iraq." would somewhat contradict the central focus 
of the antiwar movement which demands immediate withdrawel of all the troops. 
As the two prowar parties in Washington become more and more isolated 
from the vast majority in this country, they will see a need to set the date for 
withdrawing the troops. Nothing short of demanding immediate withdrawel 
of all the troops will force the war makers out. The challenge upon us is to 
convince millions more that the occupation has no legitimacy whatsoever and 
that the best timetable for bringing the troops home is three years ago when 
they were first sent over there. If they set a date of 2008 as proposed by John 
Kerry during the elections then it implies that the occupation has some legitamacy. 
We have won nothing until all the troops and bases are out of there. Our job is 
not to demand a date or to design a timetable for them but to demand that they 
leave NOW. That is the only language that the war makers in Washington 
understand. They will design their timetable. Our date is NOW.

The time has arrived when we must begin calling on ourselves to build a mass 
social movement independent of support for either of these two parties not "calling 
on Congress". A movement that redefines the political agenda pointing toward a 
struggle for human needs and international solidarity. A movement that speaks to 
the needs of those of us who work for a living. Student strikes are now on the 
agenda. Mass protests among the troops are now on the agenda. Mass protests 
targeting the War Machine are now on the agenda. We must never slide into 
the mode of thinking that we can give advice to these people as to what would be in 
their best interest. Their best interest lies in spreading death and misery throughout the 
world in the interest of profits and control of resources and markets. Their best interest 
lies in controlling the oil resources of Iraq and the entire region which means 
consolidating a protectorate and having permanent bases in Iraq. 
John
-----Original Message-----
From: BostonMarch20 at yahoogroups.com [mailto:BostonMarch20 at yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gary hicks
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:51 PM
To: massgreens needtoknow
Subject: [BostonMarch20] After September 24th -------------------------------------------- WHAT NEXT?

  Found at: http://www.pww.org/article/articleprint/7783/Peace movement at a turning point [input]   [input]  
---------------------------------

Author: Judith Le Blanc

People's Weekly World Newspaper, 09/22/05 12:57 

Over half of Americans now believe the U.S. war in Iraq is not worth the human and financial cost. Only 36 percent believe that maintaining current troop levels will ensure safety and stability in the country. It’s a turning point moment for U.S. policy and the peace movement. How can the peace movement meet the challenge? 

Now is the time to build a massive, broad movement calling on Congress to set the date for removal of all U.S. troops and bases from Iraq. We must make the connection between the war in Iraq and the economic and social crisis at home, and build on the growing dissent among U.S. troops and their families and the unprecedented opposition to the war by organized labor. 

The peace movement must work at the grassroots to show that the ongoing occupation of Iraq is the biggest barrier to rebuilding America’s cities, from the Gulf Coast to neighborhoods across the nation. The Iraq war price tag surpasses $200 billion. While nearly 2,000 U.S. soldiers have died, and thousands more are severely injured, veterans’ hospitals are being closed. The Bush administration’s racist indifference in the days following Hurricane Katrina has underscored to the entire world the president’s distorted priorities. National Guard troops who should have been ready to respond to this natural disaster were in Iraq fighting a war based on lies. 

In a Sept. 15 Wall Street Journal/NBC poll, 60 percent of Americans said rebuilding the Gulf Coast should be a higher priority than “establishing democracy” in Iraq. The poll reported the top choice for paying for Gulf Coast recovery is cutting funds for the war. 

The shifting public opinion on the Iraq war is shown in the unprecedented criticism by military families and soldiers, most dramatically galvanized by Gold Star mother Cindy Sheehan’s quest to meet with Bush in Crawford, Texas. 

Working people increasingly see that the Iraq war is against their interests. Local union leaders and rank-and-file trade unionists formed U.S. Labor Against the War shortly before the war began and worked tirelessly over the last three years to pass antiwar resolutions in local unions, state federations and international unions. They organized a national tour of Iraqi trade unionists. This activity culminated in the passage of a historic antiwar resolution at the AFL-CIO’s national convention in July. It is the first time the labor federation has ever passed a resolution opposing a U.S. war. 

The increasing opposition to the war in Iraq is no accident. It is the result of hard work by the peace movement, exposing the Bush administration lies, revealing the realities of war and giving voice to military families. 

Together with its member groups and allies, United for Peace and Justice (UFPJ) has organized some of the largest antiwar demonstrations in the country’s history, as well as countless peace actions in small towns in every state. UFPJ has employed a multifaceted approach, including lobbying, massive mobilizations, grassroots education, civil disobedience and coalition-building, to build the broadest movement possible to bring the troops home. 

The cumulative momentum of large national mass actions and local organizing efforts has spurred many national religious denominations, civil rights and other organizations to adopt antiwar resolutions. It has also created the political space for mainstream voices to come out against the war and for the emergence of an Out of Iraq Caucus in Congress. 

The Out of Iraq Caucus is just a beginning. Organizing must now use every possible way to channel the questioning of the Bush administration’s priorities into the electoral arena, as nervous congresspersons worry about their re-election races a year from now. To end the war, we must build a bipartisan peace bloc in Congress that can set the date for troop withdrawal and force Bush and the Pentagon to end the occupation. 

We must redouble our efforts to draw in people of color, union members and unorganized people who are facing the daily effects of a system in deep crisis. 

We can end this war, but it will take a more dedicated and powerful peace movement, one that reaches out beyond its traditional constituents to the people most affected by the consequences of the war and the war budget. It is becoming clear to everyone that neither the U.S. nor Iraq is more secure while U.S. troops remain in Iraq. It is up to us to turn the growing opposition to Bush into a massive movement to set the date and bring the troops home now. 

Judith Le Blanc is a member of the National Committee of the Communist Party USA. She is also national co-chair of United for Peace and Justice, the nation’s largest peace coalition. 

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