<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi
Keith,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You
have had three months to make concrete proposals on the question of democracy.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You
have chosen not to. You have had ample opportunity to make proposals on agenda
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>points. You have that opportunity now as you have in the past. If you had
not disappeared </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>for a
while in </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>July you would be playing </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>more of a
role <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#000000 size=3>"generally
overseeing the tempo, character, </FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#000000 size=3>and content of the whole
</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000
size=3>process." That was your choice. Maybe you can find a way for
</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>us to be able to use the room past
8:00 PM. I have been unsuccessful in that regard.
</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
political "lashings" that you have performed have been far more numerous than
mine. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Democracy is an important question that will be discussed and
debated long after October 29th. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I am
sure everyone will be looking forward to hearing your ideas and proposals as we
move forward </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>in the
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=234565318-08102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>months ahead. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005>In solidarity,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=234565318-08102005>John</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
O29-bounces@massglobalaction.org
[mailto:O29-bounces@massglobalaction.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Keith
Rosenthal<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 08, 2005 2:49 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
o29@massglobalaction.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [O29] "big chiefs" in
O29<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>john,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>all the people you listed: chris, nick g., etc., have been doing a
wonderful job organizing for this protest and their input is always great,
crucial, and important, and i hope they continue to speak up with their
ideas. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>the "big chiefs" i am referring to are actually not the ones you
mentioned at all. i'm referring to the ones who come off as the most
confident and talkative in the meetings, tend to interrupt others at the
meetings, get aggravated and constantly try to interject into meetings that we
have to "move on," and generally act like they are the supreme guiding forces
of the protest and coalition effort who have been charged -- without any vote
being taken -- with generally overseeing the tempo, character, and content of
the whole process. everyone in the group knows that these "big chiefs"
are the ones who act in such a way as to project the sense that they are in
charge and everyone else should just generally go along with what they think
lest they be on the receiving end of a moralistic, personalistic, and
obnoxious (<EM>anything but patient and
political</EM>) lashing. from coming up with agendas behind the
scenes that get dumped on some unsuspecting chairperson at the last minute
(which has begun to change, and which is great), to speaking out of turn and
taking an aggressive posture towards any agenda points or ideas that have
not been pre-discussed with these "big chiefs", which makes newer
people feel less confident to speak up in meetings. this is what
i'm referring to. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>we have taken steps forward around these issues since i've begun
attending these meetings consistently in September, but I think this process
needs to keep proceeding towards further openess, active inclusion, and
democracy, which will ony lead to stronger, bigger, more inviting, and more
vibrant planning meetings, which will make people feel welcome and excited
about building the hell out of this protest. this is why democracy and
inclusion is inextricably linked with the process of building mass protests
and struggle.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>we can have a huge protest on Oct. 29th. i flyered and tabled on
Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday of this past week for the protest and the
response has been great. we can make this protest even better and
even bigger if we are able to continue our outward organizing, get more people
in the coalition and beyond involved in this
process, <EM><STRONG>and also continue</STRONG></EM> the
current (and, hopefully, future) important--somtimes
contentious--internal political discussions.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--keith</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>John Harris <john.r.harris@verizon.net></I></B>
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>Hi
Keith,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>You have raised some concerns about democracy here
that should be addressed. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>In
particular <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#000000 size=3>you would
like to see more "discussion concerning the <EM>political</EM>
</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#000000
size=3>shape of the protest and movement". In June when ideas were being
debated </FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#000000
size=3><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>about the political shape of the
movement when the Committee for a Fall Action
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#000000
size=3><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>had a</SPAN> discussion of the
Fall </FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=+0><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>Boston action you spoke volumes and no one cut you
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>off. Once there was
support in the broader antiwar movement for a fall action, the
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>Committee for a Fall
Action dissolved. The purpose of our existance was achieved.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>In July, you chose not
</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>to come to
meetings of the October 29th Coalition or bring </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>your ideas forward. In
August there was extensive debate on demands </SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>and the </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005><EM>"political</EM> <FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#000000 size=3>shape of the protest and
movement" and </FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT>you expressed your
</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>views like
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>everyone
else. </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>You
were not cut off and neither were any of </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=+0><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>the people </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=+0><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>newer than </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>you. In September the
discussion focused more on "getting things done" and I feel
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>this is only natural. You
have been given ample opportunately to express your views
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>on the list serv. You have
certainly taken this opportunity more than I have. I guarentee
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>that I won't
</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>complain later
that I did not have the opportunity. You seem to agree that
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>process should not trump
politics or action. What we need now is Action and process
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>should not be allowed to trump this. You will again
have the opportunity to debate "political </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>shape" in the form of a proposal for a demand. And
the Coalition has the democratic right to </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>take Action on whatever is decided. It is
unfortunate that we get booted out of our meeting </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>place at 8:00 sharp. But that is the arrangement we
democratically decided to make. The </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>Coalition decided in July to
encourage </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>organizations </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>to put out postings and
fliers. This has </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>been done. You could have made a
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>proposal to the contrary. But I think it is a
little late now. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>Were we being undemocratic? </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>In
an earlier post you raised something very closely related to what you are
raising below: </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>"if anything, we should be seeking to get new
people involved </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>and coming back to the </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>planning meetings to help us build for the
protest. that means that </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>in addition to doing
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>outreach, our meetings have to be open, inviting,
accessible, and exude </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>a desire to take </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>the time to draw new people into the discussion,
hear out their ideas and </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>concerns, and </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>take the time to give them full discussion, not
trample all over them and </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>indefinitely table
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>their proposals because "the big chiefs have to get
to work." in my experience, it is quite </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>possible (and necessary) to combine the utmost in
discussion </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>and democracy with the </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>utmost in organizing. otherwise, at the end
of the day, there is nobody </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>but the "big chiefs"
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>left standing alone in the room."
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>In
my view, I see you reinventing yourself as a newcomer </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>and bursting
on to the scene to </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>challenge the "big chiefs". The task of geting "new
people involved <FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>and coming back to the </SPAN></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>planning meetings to help us build for the protest"
is what many of us are doing right now. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>The October 29th Coalition never bothered to elect
a coordinator ("big chief"). Thank heaven </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>Chris is coordinating Outreach and Karen was
coordinating Permits and Jason is </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>coordinating Media and Nick is coordinating the Web
Site and maybe Brian on finances. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>I
am not sure who is coordinating </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>our other
activities. To some </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>the "big chief" line of
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>argumentation </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>in this context may
seem </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>offensive and could put Machiavelli to shame.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>But for me it has provided some comic relief which
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>I have enjoyed. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=687512716-08102005>In
Solidarity,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005>John</SPAN></FONT></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=687512716-08102005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=687512716-08102005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
O29-bounces@massglobalaction.org
[mailto:O29-bounces@massglobalaction.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Keith
Rosenthal<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 08, 2005 11:37
AM<BR><B>To:</B> o29@massglobalaction.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [O29] Monday
meeting, open to public, one protest/one flyer<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Hey,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> A discussion on the demands issue definitely needs to be
on the agenda. It was a tie vote last week, there has been more time
for discussion and compromise since, and because of the nature of the
demand, the tie vote needs to be broken one way or the other because of
the importance of the demand. We could just allot 15-20 minutes for
this discussion, take hands, for and against, and then vote. A
discussion on the different ideas people have for how to politically shape
the protest is just as (if not more) important than a logisitical
discussion about the order of the speakers or how we're going to
get a sound system (which can be worked out in sub-committees).
</DIV>
<DIV> Anyway, it would be healthy for our coalition to hear
out in full the different political ideas people have about the protest,
and not just talk about the various specific and mundane (though not
unimportant) details. I've personally been frustrated with the
extent to which our meetings have been marked by the quick cutting off of
discussion concerning the <EM>political</EM> shape of the protest and
movement, in order to "get things done." To me this is undemocratic,
because then the political shaping of the protest, which is the most
important part, ends up happening in individual discussions and
conversations elsewhere. I have heard it said that this
is done in order to keep the coalition "unified," but I actually
think it only keeps us divided from hearing out each others'
ideas. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Finally, I'm actually not sure that we should have 20
different flyers for the protest, all created by different member groups,
and all saying different demands on them. If we were going to do
that, then what's the point of even voting on demands? We are voting
on these demands because we, as a majority, feel that they are crucial
demands to get out there into the public eye, and, by voting, or not
voting, we feel that the whole group ought to be democratically
accountable to carry out that decision, with one flyer, which we will all
be using.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Oh, and one last thing, if there is anyone out there in
listserve land that has been following this debate, I strongly encourage
you to feel more than welcome to attend the organizing meeting this coming
Monday at 6pm at the Mass Global Action Office at 33 Harrison Street, 4th
floor, in Chinatown (two blocks from the Chinatown T stop on the
Orange Line). Especially if you understand the importance of getting
this demand against racism on the flyer and central to our movement,
please come to the meeting Monday and let your voice be heard. Thank
you.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Solidarity,</DIV>
<DIV>Keith Rosenthal</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>DAVID KEIL <dmkeil@gmail.com></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">This
is to pass on ideas I've heard about procedure Monday (6pm,
MGA).<BR>Some reports we need to hear and discuss are: program; permits
and<BR>logistics; outreach (including leafleting, endorsements, and
regional<BR>outreach); and finances. We usually start with minutes from
the<BR>previous meeting, choice of note taker for current meeting, and
choice<BR>of facilitator for next meeting, plus intros. I've heard that
some<BR>committees need to meet, so if people agree, then between 7:00
and<BR>7:30 we could break the general meeting up into
committees.<BR><BR>The last item on the general agenda would be demands,
to discuss and<BR>vote on the following:<BR>- Keith's motion (10/7) to
add "Stop the Racist Attacks on the Black,<BR>Latin@, Arab & Muslim
Communities" to the list of central demands or<BR>slogans;<BR>- A
possible motion by Amee (10/8) to add "Militarism reinforces<BR>racism,
sexism, & homophobia" to the central slogans;<BR>- Possible other
slogans, such as "Stop the Racist Rhetoric" (R.<BR>Miller 10/8) or ones
based on Gustavo's post (10/8).<BR><BR>It seems that most activists want
most of the general meeting to be<BR>about important details of
preparing the action, but there seems to be<BR>a consensus also to hear
proposals on demands. Everyone wants an<BR>atmosphere of respect,
collaboration, and friendship, even if we cast<BR>divided votes and
sometimes feel angry with each other. One way<BR>suggested to ensure
this atmosphere in the demands discussion is to<BR>hear very briefly how
everyone feels; then after a brief silence, to<BR>take motions, take
brief discussion, and vote.<BR><BR>Informal discussion tonight at
Assembling Peace in JP, and discussions<BR>Sunday and Monday, will be an
important way to prepare for the<BR>too-short formal discussion Monday
night.<BR><BR>David<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>O29
mailing
list<BR>O29@massglobalaction.org<BR>http://massglobalaction.org/mailman/listinfo/o29_massglobalaction.org<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR SIZE=1>
<A
href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/">Yahoo!
Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it
free.</A></BLOCKQUOTE>_______________________________________________<BR>O29
mailing
list<BR>O29@massglobalaction.org<BR>http://massglobalaction.org/mailman/listinfo/o29_massglobalaction.org<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR SIZE=1>
<A
href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/">Yahoo!
Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it
free.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>